I Learned Lessons From My Sack At RCCG   

Published on August 9, 2010 by TheNEWS   ·   2 Comments

How did you get the vision to start Trinity House?
The vision for Trinity House is not as if it is a brand new one. It is the same sort of vision I had when I was the pastor of Christ Church. The issue was whether to give up on that vision or subsume it under some other needs. I have had the vision since 1999 when I started pastoring Christ Church.

The theme of the ministry is anchored on belief. How did you come about that?
It is not as though that is the theme of the ministry itself. That was just the theme of the inauguration. It was just something that came to me by inspiration. When I was praying to God and thinking of what to centre the inauguration on, the word ‘Belief’ just struck in my spirit. The bible says if thou can believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. And if you believe in God, that means He will make all things possible for you. So, our life is anchored on our belief in God.

The inaugural service, which heralded the birthing of Trinity House was characterised by pomp and pageantry. Why did you decide to have a service of such nature?
Was it characterised by pomp and pageantry? Well, I am not aware of that. We just decided to do it as simply as we could. We just made sure that we tried to invite the kind people who we thought we needed to reach out to. First of all, there were those who had supported us, those who we were trying to minister to, and then our friends. And we are fortunate that we have quite a lot of friends. We opted for Civic Centre because it is one of the more decent halls in Lagos, that could accommodate the people we had expected would come. It is a good venue, in terms of location and infrastructure. So, we approached the owners of the hall and they agreed for us to use it.

Is it true that the hall was given to you for free for the first two services?
It is true that the hall was given to us for free for the first two services. The owner of the hall, Mr. Jim Ovia did not collect payment from us. When we offered to pay, he declined to collect the money and said he would sow it as a seed into the ministry. And sometimes, when you start ministries like that, you receive favours from people. He insisted that it would be his own contribution to the starting of the young ministry. And we are very grateful to him. We had all sorts of people who gave us tonnes of assistance. The lady who did the catering did it for free. Leke Alder, who helped with the printing of the brochures and other materials, did it at a very discounted rate. You receive favours from people when you do this sort of things. So, we are thankful to God because we believe.

Where will the subsequent services will be held?
We will still be using the Civic Centre for a season. And thereafter, we might need to move out, partly because it is not an inexpensive place, and also because of the crowd. Moreover, we need somewhere that is a bit more permanent for us, so that we can begin to put a few structures on the ground.

So, which location are you looking at?
It is somewhere on the Island. We are still working on it and we are yet to conclude. I don’t want to speak before we conclude.

You left the Redeemed Christian Church of God, RCCG, to start Trinity House. What is your relationship with the church and the General Overseer, Pastor Enoch Adeboye?
Well, my relationship with the RCCG is still very good and it is still intact. And I am still very close to the General Overseer of the RCCG. It is just that I need to birth the vision that I received from God. So, when I had the conviction, I just knew it was the right time to face that aspect of my life. But the other relationship is still quite cordial and intact.

Let’s be more explicit here. How did the General Overseer feel when you informed him you were leaving?
That is between him and me. I am not going to discuss that with you. All I can tell you is that I have his blessing and I am still very close to him.

How true is it that you are related to him?
Yes, we are related. But you don’t expect me to discuss the details of how we are related.

Trinity House is designed to be an interdenominational ministry. Why is this so?
Yes, Trinity House is designed to be a ministry where people of all denominations will feel welcome, will come to worship, will be part of the worship, will contribute and will minister. We believe sincerely in the trinity of the body of Christ, and to break down the Chinese walls that seem to separate denominations. That is very important to us. There will be a lot of Pentecostal underpinnings. There will be a lot of influences from Anglican, Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian and all others. It is a church for all nations.

This must be the first of its kind in Nigeria.
Well, I don’t know if there is any other. I know that a few other churches are orthodox inter-denominational. But I don’t think there is any that strives to combine both Pentecostal and orthodox churches.

Let’s talk about the crisis that led to you leaving RCCG.
What crisis are you talking about?

The crisis that led to you being asked to step down as the pastor of Christ Church parish.
That is history. I don’t want to go back into history. I want to go forward into the future.

It will be nice if you would shed more light on what actually happened.
Well, I am sure a lot of people read what was published in the papers during that period. And they came up with all sorts of conclusions. But I don’t want to go back to the past. I just want to go forward into the future.

In retrospect, what did that experience teach you?
It taught me patience, humility and calmness. And I have come to love God more, depend on Him, focus on Him and be much more prayerful. The experience opened up my heart a lot more. It was a worthwhile experience. I really benefited from it.

The elders within the church were reported to have turned against you. What is your relationship with them at the moment?
The relationship between us is very cordial. I wouldn’t even say they turned against me. They were just going according to the policies of the organisation. Nobody turned against me. They just followed the policy of the organisation. And all of them are my good friends. We still get on very well. It is nothing personal.

But why didn’t you think of aligning with those principles?
It was too late.

Why would you say it was too late?
It was too late. I have told you I didn’t want to discuss this issue. Let’s not go there. Let’s move forward into the future.

Your marriage was cited as the reason you were asked to step down. How were you able to weather the storm with your wife?
We just stuck together and loved each other the more. We took one day at a time and we will keep doing that. The experience has made us stronger.

One is tempted to ask what you saw in your wife that prompted you to marry her?
I married her because I love her. I love her very much. When I met my  wife, I saw a very young lady who I felt I could help become who she was created to become. And she was a very nice, open and friendly person, who took me for who I really was. She accepted me, took me and loved me for who I am, and not what they think I am. She knows who I am and accepts me, with all my failings and falls. She doesn’t use it against me. She loves me. So, the two of us make a good pair. We get to help one another become who God wants us to be. And we are good friends – we talk, we laugh, we play and we quarel also. But after quarelling, we make up and we move on. We disagree on one or two things. That is all part of human existence. We are good friends that really care about each other and we are committed to each other’s success.

How true is it that most pastors and members of RCCG have crossed over to Trinity House?
That is not correct. A few people have come and some people who had left before have now come to Trinity House. But it is natural that when you pastor people for ten years, at least, you will have one or two people who believe in you. So, a few of them have come to Trinity House, not most.

Your wife was among the pastors that were ordained during the inaugural service. What role is she expected to play in the ministry?
I will not call that an ordination. What we did was to recognise her. But there is the traditional role of the pastor’s wife. And this involves coordinating a lot of the activities of the women. She is also expected to help with what we call hospitality and looking after the pastor’s guests. So, there is that natural role which she is expected to fit into. But then, I think my wife also has a desire for ministry in her own area. She has a calling to minister to young, teenage girls and also, to mature women, as in developing themselves and becoming career persons. So, she is working on achieving those things.

Most people are under the impression that some pastors run the church like their own personal empire.
The church has its own problems the same way the society does. And I believe it is a question of personality. When a man has a strong personality and a strong vision, he turns to drive it aggressively. And if people are not careful enough, they may construe it to feel that he is running a personal empire. My own advice and admonition is that everybody should come under authority of the organisation and be subject to the principles and policies of such organisation. But all these things will evolve naturally over time, because nobody is going to live for ever. And the organisation will, one day, take its rightful place.

The church, as a body is faced with so many problems. Can you highlight some of these problems?
As long as we are human beings, who have human frailties, there will always be problems that need to be addressed. Even in the bible, Moses was a great pastor. He pastored about four million people. But he had a problem with his temper, and sometimes, non-delegation of responsibilities, which had to be solved. David was a great pastor and a great king. But he had a problem of fornication and adultery. Solomon also had the same problem. Elijah also at a time, became very depressed. He became so depressed that he wanted to abandon his job. Even the great Apostle Peter had the problem of not being able to face up to the Gentiles and the Jews. And at a time, Paul had to criticise him that he was being two-faced. So, as long as we have human frailties, there can never be a perfect organisation. But as these things occur, we will tackle them. There is no perfect human being. And you have to understand that pastors are also human beings. So, a lot of us may be good in one area, and there may be a bit of flaws here. However, we will try and manage those flaws and deal with them. And some may have a bit more flaws than others. What is important is that most pastors cater to the needs of certain people. For a man to have a following, he must be catering to the needs of that following and he must be helping them in one way or another. As long as he is able to help them improve themselves, he must be doing a reasonable job. And as he continues to do that job, the Master, the God who calls him, will begin to tackle all the frailties and the problems that he has. And we will never cease to have problems among pastors, within the church and even within the society. As long as we have human beings with human frailties, there will always be one challenge or the other. But the important thing is to face them head-on, and not to hide them or pretend as if everything is okay. Once the issue comes up, we face it and deal with it, as a body. We will make the necessary apologies, restitution and corrections. And then, we will move on to the next level.

Lack of quality leadership is a vital area which is affecting the larger society. In what way is the church reaching out to people in such positions to get them to effect a change in the lives of the people.
To be honest with you, the church has not done as much as they should have over the last few years. And this is one of the problems that Trinity House wants to tackle head-on. The church has been a bit shy, in an attempt to be non-political and non-partisan. The church prefers to leave politics and leadership and teach on following Christ, being spiritual and being holy. But what we are saying is that you cannot leave society in the hands of people who are not quite qualified, people who don’t have the understanding, the compassion, the training and the value system to run an organised society. And it is only the church that has the compassion, the training, the value system that we call holiness and righteousness. And these are the values that we need in leadership. So, the church must export these values, insist on them, speak about them and speak to leadership, that these are the values we need in you, our leaders, to lead us aright. The church must also encourage leadership to imbibe those values in the things that they do. So, that is the role of the church. And the role must keep encouraging, must keep speaking, and in fact, criticise from time to time, where it is necessary. And the church itself must lay an example, so that it must continue to test itself, re-invent itself and speak truth to leadership.

There has been so much debate over the issue of the church’s involvement in politics. How can the church exact its influence on politics?
The church is an integral part of the society. And it must exact its influence on politics. First, the church must insist that the electoral process must be transparent. The church must insist that the electoral process must throw up the best qualified people to lead. The church must fight and speak against corruption. The church must encourage its members to participate in the political process, either through voting or through offering themselves for positions of leadership. And the church must also correct its own that misbehaves. For instance, if a commissioner in Lagos State is a member of my church and he misbehaves. I will correct him and call him to order, as his pastor. I am not going to tolerate him because it is all about politics. As his pastor and father, I should be able to talk to him. One of the problems we have today in leadership is that nobody can talk to them. And one of the most influential people in the world is a man’s pastor. When a pastor refuses to influence his congregation positively in that area, then he is missing his role. It was Nathan that spoke to David and told him what he did with Bathsheba was wrong. Nobody could talk to David. He was king. It took his pastor and his prophet to warn him that what he did was wrong. And that was what led to David’s repentance and finally led to his restoration. So, the church must be able to speak to leadership and point out where they have gone wrong. And of course, the church must also encourage leadership when they have done the right thing. And so, the church must play both roles, and then, encourage its own people that are good and qualified to run for office. In the past, the church used to encourage them, saying that Christians or the church should have nothing to do with politics. We cannot continue to do that. It is not quite accurate.

But there is this notion that the church is not competent to effect a reduction in corruption, because it is itself corrupt.
That is why I said the church must also heal itself. The church must also deal with the aspects of its own flaws, so that it will have a voice to talk. The church has allowed certain aspects of it to be corrupted. But then, it is a human failing. So, we need to consistently speak to ourselves. Jesus Christ had 12 disciples and one of them was corrupt. Judas kept on stealing the money, and then he went and betrayed the Master. It has always happened and it will always happen. The world is unlikely to be a perfect place. Maybe when Jesus comes, we will get that perfection. But we will keep working at ourselves.

One is tempted to ask if you have always wanted to be a pastor?
To be honest, I didn’t think, for once in my life, that I will ever be a pastor. It is a call. I found myself in it. I didn’t aspire to it. I aspired to leadership of people in one form or another. That was why I formed a company. And that was how I got a bit involved in political process. I have always been interested in political change. But as to being defined and denominated a pastor, it didn’t occur to me. But as I grew in the body of Christ, I got more responsibilities. The pastoral role became a natural role for me, because I was naturally endowed and have been naturally endowed to lead people. I have been doing it since my primary school days.

You are involved in philanthropic and charity activities. How were you able to cultivate that passion?
It is the same passion. I have a passion for the good and well-being of every person. There is nobody I see and I interact with, that I do no desire an improvement in their lives. None. And that is why a lot of these people naturally gravitate towards me. When I see them, I look at their problems, especially for those who are serious. There are some that are not serious and you have to keep managing them until there is an improvement. If I see a child that is homeless, my desire is to provide a home for him. I see a prostitute, my desire is to change her life to be a governor. If I see a blind man, my desire is to be his eyes. I see a cripple, my desire is to be his feet. I just desire goodness and wellness for people, and I fight it aggressively because I know that the essence of a man’s life is not what he has but what he gives. If you cannot add value to life and society, then your life is not worth living. And that is why I take up every single aspect of human improvement that comes across my way.

You set up an orphanage while at Christ Church. Was it a personal venture or that of the church?
I hardly do anything personally as such. I just see myself more as a catalyst, a coordinator, a motivator and a visionary. So, whenever I want to do anything, I think my idea. And sometimes, it is not even my idea, it is somebody else that brings the idea to me and we think it through. That is my strength –– to be able to think through. And then, I put a team to work on the idea and I will motivate them and give them direction. When they come up with a principle, we make it work, whichever way we can. In some cases, the church has to fund and assist. Some can be totally private initiative and most of the others can be a mixture of everything. Where the church comes in is that when you lead people and you are their pastor, it is a bit easier for you to encourage them to do one thing or the other. So, you get a lot of members to donate time free, donate resource free and donate their money free. Some of them may allow you to use their office and provide equipment. So, you get a lot of energy that way. So, most of these projects are privately driven and energised, even though most of the people come as members of the church. And then, I also use it to get a lot of my friends involved, especially those who are not yet born-again. If they are not ready to come to church, I persuade them to help with the orphanage or assist the blind people. When I see that they have an area of passion, I use it to get them interested and get them working for God. And before you know it, they will start coming to the church, they will start associating with the people. So, for me, it is also an evangelical tool and it is a win-win situation. There is room, there is scope and there is an opportunity for everybody. I just try to identify people’s areas of interest or strength, and I work with them in that area.

2010 is a few months away. What will be the involvement of the church in the electoral process of the coming election?
One of the things we are trying to do is to get the church more politically aware. The church needs to encourage its members to take an interest in the political process. The church has to stop being passive, as it was before. We are going to tell our people that they must register to vote. Then, we are going to tell the ones who have the inclination to go and compete. And we will tell them to get ready to compete fairly. Then, we are going to tell those who are going to vote that before they vote for anybody, they should know him, study him and be sure that this is the person they want to have influence over their lives. They should ask him questions and ask him to present his manifesto. So, we are going to insist that we have a process that throws up a person that the people want. And we are going o make sure that the election is free and fair, by being in attendance at the various polling booths and making sure that ballot boxes are not stolen, carried away or stuffed. These are the things that every organisation that has influence over people should make sure its people do. We must all rise up as a nation and set our national agenda right, so that we are no longer saddled with leaders we didn’t vote for, or leaders we didn’t elect, or leaders we cannot talk to. When you didn’t vote for a man, there is no way you can caution him when he is misbehaving, because you don’t know how he got there in the first place. Nigeria must change. We are not going to get it all perfect overnight, but it is a process and we will keep working at it. Even America and Britain still have problems with their politics after all these centuries of running political system. But they keep working at it and the system keeps correcting itself. When the people in Britain got tired of Gordon Brown, they voted him out and compelled him to hold another election. The people elected another man and if he starts misbehaving after a few years, he will be voted out again. That is how life must go, because what you did yesterday that was successful is not going to be the same thing that is successful tomorrow.

But your brother and sister had been involved in politics at various times in the past.
Not in a partisan level as it were. Again, our parents brought us up to be a bit non-partisan, because they were both civil servants. The one who came nearest to joining a party was my sister, Tolu. She seriously thought of running for office, but I think she got a bit busy with her career and didn’t bother. My brother, Asue also has friends from every side of the divide. I know he has been offered one or two positions in the past, which he turned down for various reasons, because it wasn’t quite where he thought he would be most useful. If he is offered a position where he can be really useful, I think he will consider it seriously. But all three of us, what we are most interested in is enforcing good governance and integrity. We are not looking for position, power or money. We are just looking for the benefit of mankind.

Tags:  Civic Centre, Trinity House